Curse

JONO51 · Feb 17, 2012, 06:27 PM // 18:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slowpokeking

Make Zei Ri available is not going to affect the challenge.

Its a worthwhile reward for the time and effort involved. All they have to change is to let you do HM from the start, then its all fine.

konshie · Feb 17, 2012, 09:54 PM // 21:54

i finally completed HM and got zei ri. i managed to solo the majority of it, though on 2 quests i grouped with others. i didn't use any consets. (i used it once but, party wiped still :/) the process of repeating the whole quest chain was the most excruciating and painful ever.

i painstakingly completed pre-nerf "tracking the corruption". i spent several hours tinkering with builds and positioning, even went in with a full "balanced' pick up group of players, yet the attempts still failed. just when i thought cleansing minister cho's, cleansing hajiu lagoon... that tracking quest was beyond annoying.

i'm a casual player, and part of finishing some woc hm quests were pure luck. i've sat in outposts trying to advertise to look for parties. i've seen other players advertise looking for parties for hours too. i can sympathize with the other players who are struggling and having difficulty to reap the benefits. yes, HM is supposed to be challenging, but when one has to spend several hours to successfully complete one quest when they have tried every build, strategy they can come up with using their own resources, then it doesn't feel fun and rewarding as much anymore.

when i actually got zei ri, it was a relief. however, surprisingly i was getting more excited about turning in the minsterial commendations and requisition orders for the lockboxes to see what i could get. (and with luck i got a mini from one of them). doing hm alone had a lot of rewards other than zei ri, it gave a lot of money, orders, lockpicks.

tl/dr; /signed

@markaedw- people are probably not willing to help because they are too busy soloing woc again on their other characters

Konig Des Todes · Feb 17, 2012, 10:41 PM // 22:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by JONO51

Its a worthwhile reward for the time and effort involved. All they have to change is to let you do HM from the start, then its all fine.

The issue with this is that it contradicts the very essence of the Hard mode only quests - which WoC's HM quests are obviously a part of - which is to provide additional content for those who wish to complete it.

While no one is forcing folks to get Zei, having Zei available only to those who do the HM quests is enticing to the point of indirectly forcing folks to do those quests. Which is a bad move based on the original design of HM quests.

The original design was to be "top of the top" - something that only the best players, who always complain things are too easy, would be able to enjoy doing. This is what the Test Krewe were told when testing the Titan quests' HM versions. And they were optional 100% of the way without ever giving rewards that couldn't be obtained elsewhere.

Until part 3 of WoC, where they nerfed the HM quests, this was true.

Whether or not Zei is available in NM is irrelevant at this point, imo. The fact was that they made him available only in HM, and in turn was forced to do the same thing that they were forced to do for the Battle of Lion's Arch so as to make new content available to players.

I just hope they revert to the original thought of the HM quests - giving no unique rewards, but more of the better side of pre-existing rewards. And in turn, making them challenges and keeping them challenges. Even if 80% of the playerbase can't beat them - it won't matter because they wouldn't have to, unless they're completionists to the point of being unable to live without completing something (and no one is that).

To close things off:
/don'tcare

Markaedw · Feb 17, 2012, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by konshie

i finally completed HM and got zei ri. i managed to solo the majority of it, though on 2 quests i grouped with others. i didn't use any consets. (i used it once but, party wiped still :/) the process of repeating the whole quest chain was the most excruciating and painful ever.

i painstakingly completed pre-nerf "tracking the corruption". i spent several hours tinkering with builds and positioning, even went in with a full "balanced' pick up group of players, yet the attempts still failed. just when i thought cleansing minister cho's, cleansing hajiu lagoon... that tracking quest was beyond annoying.

i'm a casual player, and part of finishing some woc hm quests were pure luck. i've sat in outposts trying to advertise to look for parties. i've seen other players advertise looking for parties for hours too. i can sympathize with the other players who are struggling and having difficulty to reap the benefits. yes, HM is supposed to be challenging, but when one has to spend several hours to successfully complete one quest when they have tried every build, strategy they can come up with using their own resources, then it doesn't feel fun and rewarding as much anymore.

when i actually got zei ri, it was a relief. however, surprisingly i was getting more excited about turning in the minsterial commendations and requisition orders for the lockboxes to see what i could get. (and with luck i got a mini from one of them). doing hm alone had a lot of rewards other than zei ri, it gave a lot of money, orders, lockpicks.

tl/dr; /signed

@markaedw- people are probably not willing to help because they are too busy soloing woc again on their other characters

Which proves my point and why the HM hero reward was and is a bad idea. I'll repeat myself, grouping had a narrow window, and now any late comers are being punished and locked out.

Rod Adams · Feb 18, 2012, 01:12 AM // 01:12

/signed.

Playing through NM with my 10 'main' characters (one each prof) will be quite enough. Playing through 20 times is just crazy. I generally only do HM content on a few of the characters.

As for extra rewards for playing in HM... you get double the quest rewards, which add up to being rather generous.... 72P, 2x(diamond, ruby, sapphire, onyx), something like 20 lockpicks.. not to mention the end weapons and all the drops. Sure that's chump change for some of the ultra-rich out there, but for most players that's a pretty healthy reward.
Putting a hero there is just kinda crazy.

MithranArkanere · Feb 18, 2012, 01:12 AM // 01:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markaedw

Which proves my point and why the HM hero reward was and is a bad idea. I'll repeat myself, grouping had a narrow window, and now any late comers are being punished and locked out.

As I mentioned before, it isn't rare for ANet to have high difficulty at the start and then have it reduced after some time (with things like consumables, heroes, enemy rebalances, skill rebalances...), so those that are able to do things get to show off for some time, and then everyone gets to do it.

Showtime · Feb 18, 2012, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Be nice if doing it once opened it up for all toons. It is time consuming...

Gli · Feb 18, 2012, 07:59 AM // 07:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

As I mentioned before, it isn't rare for ANet to have high difficulty at the start and then have it reduced after some time (with things like consumables, heroes, enemy rebalances, skill rebalances...), so those that are able to do things get to show off for some time, and then everyone gets to do it.

Yeah, they have a history of doing that. The question is, do we want them to make acquiring Zei Ri easier by adding him as a hero earlier than at the end of the HM quest chain, or do we want the HM quest chain to be watered down?

tenderpoison · Feb 18, 2012, 11:31 AM // 11:31

So what I'm getting from this thread is that people want Zei Ri with no effort or just do one quest HM and get the rit. Beside that, everyone apparently wants to go through WoC NM or HM or whatever really easy - just wand them all to death. Well, it's not supposed to be work, but on the other hand there must be a difference between the players who understand skills or those who want to emprove and those who just use meta. If you're playing it just for fun, why do you really need another rit hero? Fun doesn't involve 3 rits heroes as far as I know. True, whoever can complete it HM wouldn't need another rit hero, while most of the people who can't complete it HM would need another rit hero to help them complete it in HM. Kind of a paradox. I was thinking outloud (finished WoC NM on 7 chars and HM on only 1 char - sin) - if it wasn't for the rit hero as a reward for completing WoC HM, what else would have pushed me to finish it? Nothing, really...doing WoC NM on those 7 chars got me all the Orders needed to get Imperial Weapons. If I need money, I won't spend billions of hours playing WoC NM or HM to get rewards, I'll rather go farm something. If I wanted more Gold Z Coins I guess I could do more daily zaishen stuff on all my chars...so what is it for a guy like me that could make me go all the way through WoC HM? The Rit hero was and still is the best reward for me. Everything else I can get on my own, doing sc's or w/e. For those who want another rit hero? Play WoC HM. It's not that tough. I'm no elitist, I didn't get much help (beside reading the suggestions on wiki), didn't use any cons and I still did it. So just play it. Heroes and yourself or get some friends to help you. When you're gonna finish it, you'll realize it's not that bad and maybe you're gonna learn a lot of things out of it. Tactics, builds, situations etc. Good luck with it and if anyone needs any company through WoC NM or HM, let me know. I might wanna do it again for fun.

Konig Des Todes · Feb 18, 2012, 02:59 PM // 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenderpoison

So what I'm getting from this thread is that people want Zei Ri with no effort or just do one quest HM and get the rit. Beside that, everyone apparently wants to go through WoC NM or HM or whatever really easy - just wand them all to death.

I can't speak for everyone, but of the posts I've read, that's not the case.

The first bit can be read that way, or it can be read as not having to grind tediously or go through the hardest content in the game for one measly yet desired hero.

The second part is more of an alternative, rather than an addendum. They want HM watered down because Zei is too hard for most people to get.

It's not "new rewards, no work" from what I saw (some people will undoubtly want this), but rather "new rewards, not impossible-for-some-to-complete work."

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenderpoison

I was thinking outloud [...] - if it wasn't for the rit hero as a reward for completing WoC HM, what else would have pushed me to finish it? Nothing, really...

This here is the issue with the HM quests. The original HM only quests were designed for people to go through if they want the challenge, not if they want the reward. WoC HM quests started this way, but not with Zei's addition.

TBH, I'd prefer no Zei in the game than ruining what I thought was the best part of HM quests.

drkn · Feb 18, 2012, 04:22 PM // 16:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Showtime

Be nice if doing it once opened it up for all toons. It is time consuming...

And that is a brilliant suggestion.

Chthon · Feb 18, 2012, 08:15 PM // 20:15

/signed

Reasons:
1. Doing it once in HM was OK with me, but doing it 10x for all my characters? Waaaaay too time-consuming.
2. Doing it once in HM is not OK with most people. These forums are full of posts by people who can't manage Cho's HM or Tracking the Corruption HM. It's not cool to have something that's completely out of reach for a large part of the player base, especially when...
3. It's the third rit hero. (Or third mesmer hero if you replace razah and convert him.) This is significant in-game advantage. A lot of top-end 7H build possibilities are foreclosed if you don't have Zei Ri or cough up real-world cash for merc heroes.
4. There's nothing left to do once you get him. What's the point in getting a shiny new hero if you have no content left to tackle with him?

drkn · Feb 18, 2012, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Chthon's second point is not actually fully bad. With so many people failing at HM WoC, but still wanting to have it done (for Zei Ri or not), an incentive for teamplay is created. If one person with heroes can't do something, they should organise within their guild, or at least try to PuG it. And, in addition, it creates a new opportunity in the market to exploit for those who can finish it - even someone who's not a hardcore runner might get some cash from running people through WoC HM, if they find the correct strategy.
That's related to another positive side of WoC HM being that hard for so many people. If their motivation to get Zei Ri is high enough, they will learn to adapt their builds at some point. They'll check a few teambuilds that they've never used, maybe even will experiment with something themselves.
On top of that all, new hard content provides more interest in a certain part of the market: consets. Sure, hardcore farmers will get more cash if the demand exceeds supply (or, at least, will sell their cons faster), but it's also an opportunity for everyone to get some additional money, given the low difficulty of making a conset for sale.

I'd be much more interested in those possible new teambuilds that include an additional ritualist. 7H builds with three rits, or two players running six rits might open new ways of further breaking an already broken game. And with no new content, posing even bigger challenges, there might be little use of the new hero.

Flameseeker · Feb 18, 2012, 10:23 PM // 22:23

Completed yesterday WoC HM for the first time and to me it wasn't that hard, just time consuming.
There around 3 quests that can give trouble:
1) Rescue at minister cho. Hard but doable with heroes, depends a lot on the enemies team but nothing a few dp removers can't handle.
2) Tracking the corruption. Easier since the nerf but minor mistakes on taking care of agro can still lead to disaster. (half a brain required)
3) Warning the angchu. Dumb luck required on enemy team setup and if the bug strikes making the 2nd group not appear.

Other than this three quests there's not much to worry about, and i see no reason why people can't at least make everything on one character.

Having said that i still don't think that we should do all that on every single character, GW has always been marketed as non grind required game.
So, after Zei Ri is unlocked in a character, the game should do one of the following:
1) Have a new quest to unlock him (no need to complete the whole quest chain, just give him or make some kind of solo mission showing how he got to the last battle to aid the player against Reiko)
2) Automatically unlock HM WoC on every other char (still need to complete the quest chain)

I think any of those two options would be welcome to those who would like to enjoy the new hero but don't want to go through all the hassle every time, while still making everyone experience the whole content at least once.

Wielder Of Magic · Feb 18, 2012, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flameseeker

Completed yesterday WoC HM for the first time and to me it wasn't that hard, just time consuming.
There around 3 quests that can give trouble:
1) Rescue at minister cho. Hard but doable with heroes, depends a lot on the enemies team but nothing a few dp removers can't handle.
2) Tracking the corruption. Easier since the nerf but minor mistakes on taking care of agro can still lead to disaster. (half a brain required)
3) Warning the angchu. Dumb luck required on enemy team setup and if the bug strikes making the 2nd group not appear.

Other than this three quests there's not much to worry about, and i see no reason why people can't at least make everything on one character.

Having said that i still don't think that we should do all that on every single character, GW has always been marketed as non grind required game.
So, after Zei Ri is unlocked in a character, the game should do one of the following:
1) Have a new quest to unlock him (no need to complete the whole quest chain, just give him or make some kind of solo mission showing how he got to the last battle to aid the player against Reiko)
2) Automatically unlock HM WoC on every other char (still need to complete the quest chain)

I think any of those two options would be welcome to those who would like to enjoy the new hero but don't want to go through all the hassle every time, while still making everyone experience the whole content at least once.

Rescue at cho's in HM is quite balanced atm ( at least that is my experience).
I hero'd my way through it on derv/necro/rit/ele/sin/para/ranger.
As long as you use a longbow to pull the groups seperately there isnt much that can go wrong imo.

Tracking can still be challenging, but its more forgiving then it was.

Warning the Angchu can be done with a dedicated resto, sos channeling, and an ST with spirits gift and some other goodies.

Allow sos to place spirits at the ministry mob while still friendly, then flag behind the angchu.

Rod Adams · Feb 18, 2012, 11:06 PM // 23:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wielder Of Magic

Warning the Angchu can be done with a dedicated resto, sos channeling, and an ST with spirits gift and some other goodies.

That sounds like 3 Rit heroes to me... as a prerequisite to get the third Rit hero.
Sure there's Ne/Rt restros, and there's mercs, but there's still a bit of chicken and egg here.

Wielder Of Magic · Feb 18, 2012, 11:27 PM // 23:27

Resto and Sos are both N/Rt.

No need for that 3rd Rit, the only rit in that setup is the ST, and both Razah and Xandra can do that.
As a matter of fact, why would I want a rit healer?
Nec resto has way more reliable energy managment.
So nothing strange going on there, don't just see what you want to see.

Flameseeker · Feb 19, 2012, 02:42 AM // 02:42

I didn't meant that rescue at cho was impossible, just hard with heroes since needs some micro sometimes (and for that people need half a brain to play and know the indicators of retreat instead of just c-space).

I did angchu with another 3 players. Me N/Rt healer, a sin SY spammer and 2 warrs (1 SoS, 1 DSlash) (setup far from optimal). We did easily the 1st time, got hit by the bug. Retry full of mages barely lasted 30sec. 3rd time was alright, a couple of deaths but manageable.

3 Rits are in no way needed for anything. They may be optimal for some setups but not required. I barely run rits on my setup (woc was the 1st time i actually needed and used them) and even SoS is rare for me (as necro) to run.
2 Rits can do a fine combo between ST/SoS/SoGM (my view of rit holy trinity). For caster classes any of them can run SoS pretty well (with the added bonus from spirit summon skill), for melee they can most of the times play SY spam and drop ST if they know what are doing (boring as hell but gets the job done).

All in all a 3rd rit is a good hero to have and should require work to unlock (and the amount of work to have him the 1st time is acceptable), just not a nightmare to have in all the chars in this kind of repetitive grind.

Cuilan · Feb 19, 2012, 03:18 AM // 03:18

Most of my characters have heroes that aren't so worked on since they already have enough of the game completed to just hang out with PUGs or friends. That leaves me with just my main with the potential to complete WoC hard mode. It would basically give a hero of a strong hero profession to a character that's loaded with heroes, so that would mean a lot of spending and grind to even start WoC with another.

One would think it would be natural for someone to start off hard mode after normal or do the hard mode version of a quest right after the normal for more reward. The difficulty of the the hard mode versions is a large enough turn off for the entire set of content that had a lot of time and hard work put into it for some people. People know hard mode ranges in how hard it is, but players come to expect that they're at least decent in hard mode after years and without a learning curve in most areas that could make adjusting to WoC easier.

I've played WiK many months after the ending, so I feel the time spent with WoC quests is fine assume a player is able to complete them in a timely manner with enough skill (that I have apparently not acquired) and polished heroes.

I don't care if the difficulty of the hard mode versions is gutted at some point, but I do think it'll become something expected with anything new with a challenge if it happens with WoC. We can see already from this thread that at least some people wouldn't be surprised.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flameseeker

3 Rits are in no way needed for anything. They may be optimal for some setups but not required.

Then three ritualists are required to play optimal for some set ups.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tenderpoison

So what I'm getting from this thread is that people want Zei Ri with no effort or just do one quest HM and get the rit. Beside that, everyone apparently wants to go through WoC NM or HM or whatever really easy - just wand them all to death.

I don't think anyone will want to take you up for your offer to play with you when you start off your reply with such language.

Flameseeker · Feb 19, 2012, 04:01 AM // 04:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

People know hard mode ranges in how hard it is, but players come to expect that they're at least decent in hard mode after years

The problem with this thought is that most of HM content isn't hard at all. Any kind of subpar 7h setup can do most (if not all) vanquish and missions (master/bonus) while the player as no skills, no armor and overagroing the entire map.
Legendary Vanquisher and Guardian aren't even close to hard (even when it was 3Heroes+henchmen) just time consuming. When people compare the new HM to that they get easily mis-leaded by that fact and go straight to "it's impossible give me a nerf".
Even I got this feeling when started WiK after my "vast achievements" on HM content but quickly got the hang of hit.
We try, fail and learn how to do things right. If we're still failing 90% of the time it's still our problem and not game design.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuilan

I don't care if the difficulty of the hard mode versions is gutted at some point,

Unfortunately it will, some nerfs I considered necessary but my guess is ANET will dumb down WoC even further like they did with BLA (I still don't know what was wrong with that quest either) to please the masses.